Posts by Cold Steel

10

Starting a 'Bible Study' - The Basics

by Joe Grundy in

i never was a jw.

i was brought up in a fairly fundie sect (pb) and have been for many years an interested atheist.

i am an admirer of the work of bart ehrman (and recommend his blog).. from time to time, jws call at my door and invite me to partake in a 'bible study'.

Cold Steel

TTWSYF » So if I wanted to study the bible, wouldn't I want to go to the folks who gave us the bible?

The Catholics didn't actually "give" us the Bible. They compiled the Bible. The first century Christians had an open canon of scripture, not the 66 books we have today. Catholicism also included some apocryphal books that were of dubious value and rejected some books that were originally considered scripture. In fact, the book of Revelation barely made it into the collection, and yet today it's one of the most discussed and written about books in the Bible. Today the sanctity of the closed canon is based largely on an agreed-upon acceptance by which the various sects of Christendom are governed. But there's nothing to keep sects from adding/deleting to/from those books if they see fit. Two books I've never been fond of are Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon. Neither have teachings or prophecies of value to the church (except the one verse in the former that the Adventists use to justify its soul sleeping doctrine). The scriptural restraints on adding to or deleting from holy writ applies only to the individual books, not to the manmade compilations of books.

78

A stunning piece of LOGIC from the Apostle Paul

by nicolaou in

1st corinthians 15 12-17. but if it is preached that christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even christ has been raised.

and if christ has not been raised, your faith is futile... .

Cold Steel

Nichlaou: » But the kindest, most rational Christian just cannot escape Paul's logic quoted above; if Christ is not risen your faith is in vain. The absurdity of all this is that faith is required to believe the very thing that makes faith futile.

I'm missing the absurdity. Are you saying that the very idea of a resurrection is absurd? Or are you faulting Paul's logic? Obviously Paul is arguing that Christians who don't believe in a physical resurrection are being inconsistent. If Jesus did not die and if he wasn't resurrected, then the whole fabric of Christianity doesn't jibe. Christian miracles include the virgin birth, the visitation of angels, turning water into wine, the healing of a man who was born blind, the feeding of the multitude, raising of the dead (a type of resurrection) and Jesus' resurrection in the flesh. How is any of this different than leaving the flesh at death and continuing on as a spirit?

31

1000 Years is Like 1 Day?

by Sorry in

anyone else hear about this.

as all j-dubs know, whenever someone complains about how long the "new system" is taking too arrive, they use the excuse that jehovah works on his own time.

quite a few times during the public talks, i've heard speakers say the phrase "1000 years to us is only one day to jehovah" (my parents never stop talking about this).

Cold Steel

Sorry » "1000 years to us is only one day to Jehovah."

Then they are right...Armageddon will happen any day now!

114

"The G.B. is neither inspired nor infallible"

by smiddy in

that admission in the feb.17 ,study edition of the watchtower , " who is leading gods people today ?

" "the governing body is neither inspired, nor infallible, therefore it (they/we) can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction .".

have the many jehovahs witnesses past and present who have lost their lives by refusing blood transfusions due to the prohibition on blood tranfusions by jehovahs witnesses really got the sense of this statement ?.

Cold Steel

“The Governing Body is neither inspired, nor infallible, therefore it (they/we) can err in Doctrinal matters or in organizational direction .”

Interesting admission given the Lord’s admonition: “Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.” (Matthew 15:14) The GB statement is a tacit admission that the leadership are blind guides. And though that may be, members may still be hauled in front of a judicial committee if they buck the system.

But why?

If they can be wrong in some points, why can't they be wrong about soul sleeping, shunning, blood transfusions and crosses? Or the year Jerusalem was destroyed? They might be wrong on everything!

What good are they if they're not connected? Plugged in?

How can they feed and take care of Jehovah's household if they don't have the keys and the credit cards?

Jesus said He would reject many who claimed to serve Him, saying, "I never knew you!"

13

So does the Almighty God Jehovah make mistakes, or is the society NOT his spokesman?

by stuckinarut2 in

the society claims to be jehovah gods sole channel on earth - his spokesman.. if any witness disagrees with this claim, they are branded as an apostate and punished.. but the society has made countless errors over the century, and repeatedly changed doctrines and beliefs.

not to mention the appalling foundation teachings of the organisation's teachings!

so a simple question: is god making msistakes and getting things wrong, or is this proof that the society is not guided by god?.

Cold Steel

Yes, so how does the Organization get there? If God never spoke to the GB like Moses and the other prophets, how would they know that the WTS was the only legitimate religious group? If everything is invisible, doesn't that raise any eyebrows?

41

What Comes After the Watchtower Collapse?

by schnell in

i was going to put this in my thread about pyramid schemes, but i thought it's discreet enough to warrant its own.

1) there are many faithful jws.

2) there are many men and women who could take control and fill the void if the watchtower collapses.

Cold Steel

(Hail, Hydra!)

What makes you think the WTS is on the verge of collapse? Didn't the Organization just lay off some people (not the GB, but the "great crowd" -- it's all prophesied.) But if they got into real financial trouble, couldn't they just tap the faithful?

"Dear brothers and sisters, as Armageddon looms ever closer, Satan the Devil seeks to sift his Organization among the chaff. And he has done it through our funding. Already children are starving, dying from drought, unheard of pestilence, and your beloved Governing Body occasionally having to fly coach. To those of you with means, we ask you to reach deep into your pockets (even those of you who may be suffering discipline...okay, shunning, we said it. We were only joking. We always hurt the ones we love. We welcome you back in all faith and fellowship and ask that you be given the opportunity, a rare blessing, to help fill our coffers! And we rebuke...yes REBUKE the short-sighted elders who did this to you! We've often said in the pages of the Watchtower that shunning was wrong. So please remember us. Promote us with skits and by distributing a new line of videos entitled, The Bunker Girl and Armageddon and Anointed Bunker Girl Comes Home! Also by buying the new anatomically correct Bunker Girl action figure. So give, and the Windows of Heaven will bless you! Signed, GB."

See? Just that easy.

16

The Anointed Class: Do They Have Spirits?

by Cold Steel in

i realize that the anointed class inherits heaven while the great crowd inherits a renewed planet earth, but how and when are the anointed chosen?

are these people born with spirits or do they grow them as they live?

when they die, they don't sleep but go right to heaven, right?

Cold Steel

Cofty » Nobody has a spirit.

How do you know? What is your proof?

Smiddy » I think the Anointed class have bats in the belfry.

I tend to agree. But if you were going to have to stay in the Organization (for whatever reason, family, friends), wouldn't you want to to at least get a step up? Why should the first century saints comprise the bulk of the 144,000? Who made that decision?

MrQuik: » Nice scam until everyone else decided they too were of the anointed.

Is that a problem? I thought taking the emblems (memorial) was only a rare occurrence.

DeeGee » If the anointed do not have an immortal soul or some immaterial part of them that survives death, then whoever will be in heaven won't be the original anointed person but their CLONE since once a person dies, according to WT theology, they cease to exist; so God will have to create a spirit body FROM NOTHING for that person and that created body by definition will NOT be the original person but their CLONE.

EXACTLY. They'd have all the thoughts and memories of the originals; they wouldn't even know they were duplicates. But I thought I saw a JW picture of a spirit leaving the body of an anointed one. I'm going to try to find it. BTW, according to the doctrine, you can live a life of sin and debauchery, then when you get resurrected for the judgment, it'll be that other poor jerk (the copy) who gets obliterated. The joke will be on him!

Heaven » My maternal grandfather was one of those people. Of course, you do realize, this is all bull shite, right?

I suspected it...yes. But did your grandfather ever talk about it?

22

I got a voicemail from an elder about meeting with me.

by schnell in

yesterday, i missed a call and got a long voicemail from an elder who would like to meet with my wife and i some time this weekend, with another elder who dealt with my brother.

i haven't responded.

it's meeting night tonight, and my wife has already talked about staying home to do yoga with me instead.. yeah.

Cold Steel

I would sooner believe the story of Jephthah is fiction, of course, than for a godly man to sacrifice his daughter. But even if the story was based in truth, most believers in God know that the Spirit of God would not rest on a man who would do such a heinous thing. One reason I always despised Agamemnon is for his sacrifice of Iphigenia at Aulis.

Josiah is another story. Most Sunday School children are taught Josiah "did what is "right with the Lord":

https://youtube.com/watch?v=uWyiZ7NnlVM

Now some scholars aren't so sure.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=f6OTD7plobA

I know a number of people who don't believe Jesus ever existed. And it's now common for scholars to believe there were a number of different Isaiahs. Yet many evangelicals believe the entire Bible is the complete, inerrant word of God.

It's becoming increasingly difficult to find a common frame, or foundation, of belief upon which to debate. Many of the things we think we know, whether historically, eschatolgically or scienticically, tend to be shattered from time to time. And I've long been suspicious of the story of Sampson. The appearance of the angel, and his disappearance, was strange. Two, Sampson was an idiot in the story, being twice betrayed before his downfall with the third betrayal. Upon seeing he'd been betrayed twice, the story would have made more sense had he strangled the woman. He murdered thirty innocent people to gain their cloaks so he could win a bet. Finally, he didn't fulfill that which he'd been called to do, which was to deliver his people. If this story is true, and I have my doubts, it certainly doesn't reflect well on Israel's God!

22

I got a voicemail from an elder about meeting with me.

by schnell in

yesterday, i missed a call and got a long voicemail from an elder who would like to meet with my wife and i some time this weekend, with another elder who dealt with my brother.

i haven't responded.

it's meeting night tonight, and my wife has already talked about staying home to do yoga with me instead.. yeah.

Cold Steel

Freddo » Jesus was a human sacrifice.

Yes he was. But those who sacrificed Him were some of the most wicked people on the earth. And Judas, the apostle who turned Him over to the Jews, was called the "son of perdition." The Jews also were quite unaware that they were sacrificing Him. But Jesus gave Himself as a sacrifice for sin. He had the free agency to bail out at any time and He was never forced in any way.

He prayed to the Father to remove the "bitter cup," but nevertheless He always had the option of doing it or not doing it. Fortunately, for us, He went through with it.

In the case of Jepthah, there are two possibilities. One, he was an apostate who didn't understand the Law of Moses and he ignorantly went through with his presumptuous oath to maintain his honor. Two, he was a righteous man who understood the Torah and that human sacrifice was a pagan and abominable practice detested by God. Under the Law, human sacrifice was specifically condemned, as was offering any unclean animal. So had an unclean animal rushed out, offering it also would have been an affront to God.

The scriptures indicate Jepthah was a decent man and a man of God. They say the Spirit of God came upon him, which would not have happened had he been wicked. Japthah also was not a Levite and could not have offered his daughter by his own authority, and I doubt he could have found one who would have. King Saul, while waiting for Samuel, became impatient and offered the sacrifices himself. Although he'd just been installed, the prophet was furious. Though he was king, Saul did not have priesthood authority. And his presumptuousness cost him his throne.

So Jepthah kept his oath as was justified by the Law. Though his hasty words cost him posterity through the lifelong service and virginity of his daughter, it was her virginity she bewailed, not her life. And her virginity affected Jepthah negatively in that it stopped his posterity, and in that culture that's significant. Of course dying would accomplish the same thing but if he had sacrificed his daughter, he would have been under a divine curse.

22

I got a voicemail from an elder about meeting with me.

by schnell in

yesterday, i missed a call and got a long voicemail from an elder who would like to meet with my wife and i some time this weekend, with another elder who dealt with my brother.

i haven't responded.

it's meeting night tonight, and my wife has already talked about staying home to do yoga with me instead.. yeah.

Cold Steel

But if they get ahold of me at home and ask bluntly if I think this is the truth and want to continue, I feel as with any other sort of lie that I would do more prolonged harm than good by giving in.

What are the advantages of staying, and what do you gain from leaving? It sounds as though you've already made up your mind. On the other hand, if it affects your family or livelihood, you've got to make a decision. But the JWs never forget, never forgive. They will shun you forever. If you can live with that, fine. If a religion doesnt suit you that might be the best way to go. But if you lose friends, like the meetings, treat it as a way of life and live the fantasy.